Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

"WP:DRN" redirects here. For the "Deny Recognition" essay, see WP:DNR.

Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN. Do you need assistance? Would you like to help? Request dispute resolution If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible. This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion. We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves. The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN. The discussion should have been on the article talk page. Discussion on a user talk page is useful but not sufficient, because the article talk page may be watched by other editors who may be able to comment. Discussion normally should have taken at least two days, with more than one post by each editor. Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: {{subst:drn-notice}}. Be sure to sign and date each notice with four tildes (~~~~). Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice. Do not add your own formatting in the conversation. Let the moderators (DRN Volunteers) handle the formatting of the discussion as they may not be ready for the next session. Follow moderator instructions There will be times when the moderator may issue an instruction. It is expected of you to follow their instruction and you can always ask the volunteer on their talk page for clarification, if not already provided. Examples are about civility, don't bite the newcomers, etc. If you need help: If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you. This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy. For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page. Become a volunteer We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input. Volunteers should remember: Volunteers should gently and politely help the participant fix problems. Suggest alternative venues if needed. Try to be nice and engage the participants. Volunteers do not have any special powers, privileges, or authority in DRN or in Wikipedia, except as noted here. Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute. Listed volunteers open a case by signing a comment in the new filing. When closing a dispute, please mark it as "closed" in the status template (see the volunteer guide for more information), remove the entire line about 'donotarchive' so that the bot will archive it after 48 hours with no other edits. Open/close quick reference To open, replace {{DR case status}} with {{DR case status|open}} To close, replace the "open" with "resolved", "failed", or "closed". Add {{DRN archive top|reason=(reason here) ~~~~}} beneath the case status template, and add {{DRN archive bottom}} at the bottom of the case. Remember to remove the DoNotArchive bit line (the entire line).

Case		Created		Last volunteer edit		Last modified
Title	Status	User	Time	User	Time	User	Time
Talk:Mukokuseki#Undo	Failed	Super ninja2 (t)	16 days, 19 hours	Snowmanonahoe (t)	5 days, 7 hours	Snowmanonahoe (t)	5 days, 7 hours
Jinn	Closed	Louis P. Boog (t)	11 days, 17 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 8 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 8 hours
Climate change	In Progress	InformationToKnowledge (t)	29 days,	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 12 hours	Bogazicili (t)	1 days, 10 hours
Talk:LiveJasmin#Latest proposed_"Controversy"_section_improved_after_a_number_of_suggestions_from_the_community	Closed	Alexfotios (t)	6 days, 12 hours	Snowmanonahoe (t)	4 days, 21 hours	Snowmanonahoe (t)	4 days, 21 hours
Djong (ship)	Closed	Merzostin (t)	5 days, 19 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	3 days, 6 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	3 days, 6 hours
Sulaiman Bek	New	Ermanarich (t)	4 days, 18 hours	Snowmanonahoe (t)	4 days, 15 hours	Snowmanonahoe (t)	4 days, 15 hours
Rafida	New	Albertatiran (t)	3 days, 20 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 12 hours	Albertatiran (t)	1 days,
Aisha	New	Hakikatco (t)	1 days, 6 hours	McClenon mobile (t)	15 hours	McClenon mobile (t)	15 hours

If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 18:46, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Current disputes

Talk:Mukokuseki#Undo

– Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning.

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Filed by Super ninja2 on 14:35, 30 March 2024 (UTC). Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Mukokuseki#Undo (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Super ninja2 (talk · contribs) Orchastrattor (talk · contribs) IOHANNVSVERVS (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Me and User:Orchastrattor had a dispute about using the wording "stereotypical European features" in the lead section in article Mukokuseki especially in its definition. I thought that the article did not have enough sources to support this claim so this claim should be removed. While discussing this issue, the use brought up a book by Yano to support his claim, then he referred to a study that was off-topic, it was not about mukokuseki, so I explained that referring to it would be a WP:SYNTH. We reached a dead end so I asked for a third opinion. User:IOHANNVSVERVS kindly gave their opinion: "I agree with SuperNinja2's position and modified the lead, removing the bit about 'stereotypical European features', which doesn't seem to be supported by the sources", "Yano's perspective is that mukokuseki design ('without nationality') is often/actually 'very much imbued with Euro-American culture or race'. This can be included in the article but is an analysis/criticism of the concept, and doesn't change the definition of the concept which is approximately 'the depiction of characters with racially ambiguous features, without a concrete ethnicity or nationality'." But User Orchastrattor reverted IOHANNVSVERVS' edit and returned the wording in question to the lead and as a definition of mukokuseki and added the the study that is off-topic. I reverted his edit but he reverted mine. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? talk page third opinion How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I would like to see uninvolved editors with the experience at Dispute Resolution help to arrive on a WP:CONS in regards to all of these details and telling us what we can do to end the dispute and how each of us can compromise. Summary of dispute by User:Super ninja2 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. I think the wording; "stereotypical European features" or the "stereotypically Western characteristics" (the wording that Orchastrattor used after I reverted his edit) should not be used in the article, not to mention in the lead because there are not enough sources to support this claim. The location where Orchastrattor insists on placing this wording may confuse the reader into thinking that it is part of the definition of the concept. Orchastrattor keeps mentioning Yano's book, I'm not against using this source in the article but I think it should be included as an analysis/criticism of the concept, and should not change the definition of the concept which is "the depiction of characters with racially ambiguous features, without a concrete ethnicity or nationality". ☆SuperNinja2☆ 10:27, 1 April 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by User:Orchastrattor The sentence in question is not a definition and is providing context for the lead sentence by stating how different authors describe the subject in relation to real life. I put the article's sources together based on the top results on google and WPL, then when it was challenged I looked the subject up on a different database and found that the authors already cited for one paper in the article supported the interpretation in question in another paper. SuperNinja did not provide any concrete reason not to cite the source in the original dispute apart from falsely accusing me of cherrypicking. IOHANNVSVERVS agreed in their third opinion that we can [...] say that some people, such as Christine Yano, consider mukokuseki characters to have European features and failed to respond when I attempted to explain how this was still met by my preferred wording, I do not see what dispute there is to resolve here. I updated the wording to reflect points made in both the original discussion and the 3O, but a lot of these were reverted by SuperNinja alongside a wide range of unrelated edits I made to coverage, quality and another claim added by Piotrus (talk · contribs) as an uninvolved fourth party. Orchastrattor (talk) 18:14, 1 April 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by User:IOHANNVSVERVS Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. No comment. SuperNinja2's summary seems accurate. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 14:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC) Talk:Mukokuseki#Undo discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not yet notified the other editors on their user talk pages. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:01, 31 March 2024 (UTC)  Done ☆SuperNinja2☆ 10:04, 1 April 2024 (UTC) First statement by moderator (Mukokuseki) (hidden ping of parties) ​​​I am willing to moderate this. Please read Wikipedia:DRN Rule A. Despite what the page says, you can edit anything unrelated to the clause in question. Some initial thoughts: SuperNinja2, you cannot know whether Orchastrattor was cherrypicking sources, so assume good faith in that regard. Orchastrattor, try to keep the conversation focused on the dispute. Opening question: How do you want the lead to describe the features mukokuseki characters often have, and why? Remember to address your answer to me and the Wikipedia community (not to each other). Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 17:55, 3 April 2024 (UTC) Fix ping Super ninja2 Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 17:57, 3 April 2024 (UTC) First statements by parties (Mukokuseki) Lead (Orchastrattor) The lead sentence already defines the subject in relation to real life, it only makes sense to have Yano and Gruyter there to give specific perspectives on that relation. It makes the lead read better by bringing attention to the role of the setting in a narrative work, with two constituent claims both sourced to reputable authors and corroborated by other sources cited later. Nothing about their analysis is any deeper or more controversial than the claims used for the rest of the lead, and there is no other claim that would fit better there. Orchastrattor (talk) 18:29, 3 April 2024 (UTC) It isn't part of the definition, it is giving a potential example of how the subject can be perceived. The is no "X is Y" statement of any sort in the phrase in question. Orchastrattor (talk) 13:38, 4 April 2024 (UTC) Lead (SuperNinja2) I think that the lead section should not include "stereotypical European features" or "stereotypical western characteristics in a setting where they might otherwise be assumed to be ethnically Japanese" because there are not enough sources to support. There is at least one source that says "Although it is true that such anime characters do not necessarily adhere to the usual Japanese phenotype, it would be false to infer that, because of this, such characters look “Western” or “Caucasian.” Rather, the characters look nationless. Orchastrattor insists on placing it after the first fullstop in the lead. I would argue that this makes it part of the definition and would confuse the reader into thinking so. I think this claim should be added as an analysis/criticism of the concept and we can only say that some people, such as Christine Yano, consider mukokuseki characters to have European features. How do you want the lead to describe the features mukokuseki characters often have, and why? I think that the lead section should say "Mukokuseki is the depiction of characters with racially ambiguous features, without a concrete ethnicity or nationality" because this is the concrete definition that all sources support and agree on. Other additions are disputed between sources and the lead cannot afford to display them all. ☆SuperNinja2☆ 09:47, 4 April 2024 (UTC) Second statement by moderator (Mukokuseki) I am now going to ask that both editors write their own version of the lead. Do not simply paste in an earlier revision you prefer, because they have already been established to not have consensus. Rather, consider what the other editor has said as you write it and try to create something you think would be a good compromise. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 01:50, 5 April 2024 (UTC) Second statements by parties (Mukokuseki) I already did that with the current version, I was entertaining a lot of different ideas for the prose during the original discussion and applied those after the 3O stopped responding. I switched "features" for "characteristics" in case it would match the new source better to talk about the abstract "placing" of characters rather than actual visuals, and I switched "European" for "Western" to reorder the phrase in a manner Superninja had suggested.Orchastrattor (talk) 03:55, 5 April 2024 (UTC) Again, if you have conduct concerns, go to ANI. Super ninja2 can stop participating in this discussion at any time if she feels it is a waste. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 05:24, 5 April 2024 (UTC) The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. I don't think it's fair that Super ninja2 should have to continuously repeat themselves here. A third opinion was requested and provided affirming this version of the lead. Orchastrattor did not abide by the third opinion and restored their preferred version; isn't that edit warring? Especially when Super ninja2 reverted them "per talk page, we already discussed that" and Orchastrattor reverted them again, misrepresenting the conclusion of my third opinion. This version of the lead should be restored per the third opinion and if Orchastrattor wants it to say otherwise it should be on them to explain why. This is how I see it anyway, IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 04:25, 5 April 2024 (UTC) Third opinion is not a binding process. It is just that: a third opinion. If you believe there are issues with Orchastrattor's conduct you can file a report at ANI. DRN is not the place for this discussion. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 04:33, 5 April 2024 (UTC) It seems relevant, and I'm concerned that Super ninja2 is having their time and energy wasted here and that they will be discouraged from participating in disputes on Wikipedia in the future. Likewise Orchastrattor seems to be being rewarded for edit warring. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 04:47, 5 April 2024 (UTC) Also, I'm not familiar with DRN but isn't this statement of "Do not simply paste in an earlier revision you prefer, because they have already been established to not have consensus.", an instance of the middle ground fallacy / false compromise? Isn't it possible one editor is right and the other is wrong? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 05:02, 5 April 2024 (UTC) Yes, but if that is the case, moderated discussion would not be able to determine it. If you or one of them are confident you are absolutely right, an RfC is the appropriate venue. If you have more questions or concerns about how I am moderating this discussion, please bring them to my user talk page instead. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 05:24, 5 April 2024 (UTC) SuperNinja2 Mukokuseki (Japanese: 無国籍, translated as "statelessness" or "nationlessness") is a Japanese term describing fictional characters in visual media depicted with racially ambiguous features, without a concrete ethnicity or nationality. It is commonly invoked in visual media, including anime and manga, such as when a character is described as having neutral features. It is thought to be particularly significant in the context of marketing of entertainment properties towards non-Japanese audiences. I removed the part that talks about foreign influence because the source did not say that Mukokuseki implies foreign elements in the characters but rather says the characters appear neutral. And it did not say that Mukokuseki is a result of foreign influence on Japanese culture either. I tried to find an alternative for "stereotypical western characteristics" but couldn't find one in any source. ☆SuperNinja2☆ 16:23, 6 April 2024 (UTC) Third statement by moderator (Mukokuseki) I am now asking SuperNinja2 read the current version of the article, and Orchastrattor her draft, and explain why (if at all) you object to said version, or the editor's rationale for the changes. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 00:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC) They've explained their position multiple times at this point. @Super ninja2, you might just start a Request for Comment at the Mukokuseki talk page. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 01:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC) If you do not wish to participate constructively here, you can leave. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 01:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC) I will consider that. Thank you so much for the advice! I appreciate it. ☆SuperNinja2☆ TALK! 12:03, 8 April 2024 (UTC) Volunteer Comment - If an editor has an objection to the moderator's moderating style, they can raise their questions here, in the discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC) Third statements by parties (Mukokuseki) Lead 2 (Orchastrattor) "[W]hat is interpreted as ‘without nationality’ [direct translation of mukokuseki] is actually very much imbued with Euro-American culture or race" Christine Yano, quoted by Birlea Oana-Maria. "Yano argues that [the setting of Hello Kitty in London] can still be considered mukokuseki because in most cases, anything but a white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant is considered “ethnic culture” by most people." Newspaper review paraphrasing Yano's work directly. "[I]t gets interesting [...] when there is a large cast of Asian characters, and one of them -- usually the lead character [...] -- looks more like a Caucasian character [...] [A] Caucasian-looking lead character among a Japanese-looking cast" From CBR magazine. Superninja has changed their interpretation of the above sources multiple times throughout the dispute but these clearly support the interpretation given in the current version. Yano is a reputable expert on Asian studies, there is zero reason to think she is some sort of embattled minority on the subject, especially if she is being cited this directly by other reputable publications. CBR is also helpful as a more popular article on the same subject with a more niche interpretation but was excluded from the current version of the lead to avoid refbombing. Admittedly the prose naming 'neutrality' directly was moved away from the lead by the fourth party so it could be workshopped back in, but that is still just three different perspectives, perfectly reasonable to include especially in a lead that now has as much room for expansion as the one in question. The "might otherwise be assumed to be [...]" is also something I would really like to keep, mukokuseki as a subject would be meaningless if it didn't somehow deviate from what Japanese people might be expected to depict themselves as. Orchastrattor (talk) 03:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC) Lead 2 (SuperNinja2) I think that the lead mentions Yano's unique POV on the subject and favors it over many other sources that think otherwise without good reason. There is at least one source that says: "Although it is true that such anime characters do not necessarily adhere to the usual Japanese phenotype, it would be false to infer that, because of this, such characters look “Western” or “Caucasian.” Rather, the characters look nationless, but the lead mentions only Yano's. Why is that? That sentence is disputed between sources in top of being controversial, so it should be discussed further and it should be represented with other POVs in order to meet WP:DUE and the lead is not the place for that. And I would like to add that even Yano agrees with other sources on that "Mukokuseki means characters without a concrete ethnicity or nationality" but she adds and analyze this idea further and deeper to say: what is interpreted as ‘without nationality’ is actually very much imbued with Euro-American culture or race. So we can safely say that all the sources including Yano agree on the definition I suggested. But analyzing of the details shouldn't be in the lead. That is why I suggest analyzing it in its own section. The lead is supposed to give an overview of the subject and is not supposed to be trafficked with extra information. And not to mention the wording itself (stereotypical western characteristics) which is not even used by Yano and is very misleading. And regarding the part at the bottom of the lead that talks about foreign influence, it should be removed because the source that is cited to it did not say that Mukokuseki implies foreign elements in the characters but rather says the characters appear neutral. And it did not say that Mukokuseki is a result of foreign influence on Japanese culture either. ☆SuperNinja2☆ TALK! 12:19, 8 April 2024 (UTC) Fourth statement by moderator (Mukokuseki) Based on the statements given, please propose a compromise draft of the lead. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 16:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC) Up until this point, all three parties have seem to have made it quite clear they are not convinced by the opposing arguments. If no discernible progress is made towards a resolution soon, an RfC may be the appropriate venue for this dispute. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 17:01, 8 April 2024 (UTC) Fourth statements by parties (Mukokuseki) The current lead already names "stereotypically Western" and "racially ambiguous" as two different, opposing ways to describe the subject, either one with two or more sources throughout the article that can be drawn up to support them. Superninja is being factually and obviously incorrect when they claim Yano's work is the only one being represented in the current version. Superninja also claims this idea to be unique to Yano when as I laid out in plain English her interpretation is being repeated without any further commentary by other authors, and is echoed very closely by CBR. Thirdly Superninja misinterprets the source based on their partisan interpretation (as demonstrated in their first edit to the article) of "neutrality" as the default viewpoint that other perspectives must subscribe to, when the sources instead portray Yano's conclusion as being that something lacking "concrete nationality or ethnicity" is not the same as being neutral, all three perspectives of Western, ambiguous, and neutral have to be included with equal prominence in order to preserve neutral point of view. Those three perspectives were specifically the three I laid out in my third statement as my new, theoretical preferred version, where I offered to actively workshop the lead with Superninja to paper over a technicality introduced by an uninvolved editor; I fail to understand what the moderator means when they say I did not attempt to compromise with my opponent. I have not once yet failed to meet the moderator's demands, I just have nothing left to compromise on. Superninja on the other hand, has failed to address my repeated attempts to explain how the second sentence improves the current version; The point of an encyclopedic lead is to allow the reader to conceptualize and recognize the subject for themselves, naming the different perspectives directly is not only entirely non-exhaustive in terms of how much information is being conveyed, but is also the only non-controversial option to describe the subject in any capacity beyond the dictionary definition while also allowing the reader to frame the information in the rest of the article through those core perspectives. "Western" is also plainly synonymous with "Euro-American culture or race", just contracted to fit the sentence structure. Superninja has dodged concerns over COMPETENCE in understanding of English before and I believe the moderator should account for whether or not there is a language barrier of some kind when evaluating my attempts to compromise with my opponent. Orchastrattor (talk) 05:03, 9 April 2024 (UTC) The final sentence of the lead is also plainly stating that foreign influences are a context in which the sources analyze the subject, plainly seen in the very first sentence of the cited source, which frames the entire essay around "the [...] ability of the Japanese to adapt foreign elements". I don't understand how I am expected to compromise with someone this repeatedly incapable of interpreting basic elements of the article and sources they are arguing about. Orchastrattor (talk) 05:13, 9 April 2024 (UTC) Mukokuseki (...) is a Japanese term describing fictional characters depicted without a concrete ethnicity or nationality, particularly in anime and manga. It is commonly invoked in criticism of Japanese media, such as when a character is perceived as having racially ambiguous, culturally "neutral", or stereotypically Western characteristics in a setting where they might otherwise be assumed to be ethnically Japanese. It is thought to be particularly significant in the context of foreign influences on Japanese entertainment properties as well as the subsequent marketing of such properties towards non-Japanese audiences. I have done everything in my power to address Superninja's underlying concerns and personal viewpoints, opening an RFC at this point would just be rewarding them for failing to engage with the basic processes of wikipedia. Orchastrattor (talk) 05:33, 9 April 2024 (UTC) To elaborate on my first paragraph, if Yano is describing the subject as "imbued with" a particular cultural group then that is obviously antonymous with the subject being culturally neutral; Superninja is playing rules lawyer over whether or not Yano specifically uses the words "Western" or "European" in her work but appears to have absolutely zero issue with putting words in Yano's mouth when it comes to supporting their own viewpoint of "culturally neutral" instead. Orchastrattor (talk) 02:09, 11 April 2024 (UTC) WP:TLDR, but thanks anyway for responding. ☆SuperNinja2☆ TALK! 02:40, 11 April 2024 (UTC) Lead 3 (SuperNinja2) I don't think this is going to work. I think starting an RfC might be a better option. Thank you so much, User:Snowmanonahoe, you did a really good job! Thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion. Hope we reach a consensus in RfC. ☆SuperNinja2☆ TALK! 02:40, 11 April 2024 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jinn

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Louis P. Boog on 16:19, 4 April 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Jinn (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved VenusFeuerFalle (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I've made two attempts to include mention of belief in jinn being considered a necessary part of belief in Islam according to some scholars. Both were completely reverted by VenusFeuerFalle, one of several deletions he has made of edit I've made to Islamic articles in the past month or so. Specifically the dispute is over 1) whether this statement should be allowed in the lede Many Muslim scholars, believe that belief in Jinn is essential to the Islamic faith, since jinn are mentioned in the Quran. 2) whether revivalist preacher Abul A'la Maududi should be included among two other scholars listed who support this position (i.e. belief in Jinn is a necessary part of Islam). (The point here being that Maududi has/had a huge following and readership); 3) and whether as evidence of the significance of this belief, a brief description of the troubles of Nasr Abu Zayd "who was threated with death for apostasy" in the 1990s "(in part) because he didn't believe in jinn", should be included in the article. (The significance here is that belief in the apostasy of Nasr Abu Zayd in his country (Egypt) was so widespread that even one of the police officers guarding his house referred to him as a "kafir" when asked about him). How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Jinn talk page Third opinion here, answered by User:StereoFolic on Jinn talk page Project Islam talk page here How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Make some sort of determination or recommendation as to whether my deleted edits are good for the article, or if not why not, i.e.what wikipedia rules they do not follow. Summary of dispute by VenusFeuerFalle Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. The requested information is already part of the article and well-cited: "Belief in jinn is not included among the six articles of Islamic faith, as belief in angels is. Nontheless, many Muslim scholars, including the Hanbalī scholar ibn Taymiyya and the Ẓāhirī scholar ibn Hazm, believe they are essential to the Islamic faith, since they are mentioned in the Quran." (Nünlist, Tobias (2015). Dämonenglaube im Islam [Demonic Belief in Islam] (in German). Walter de Gruyter GmbH & Co KG.) I do not see why a more precise statement should be replaced by a more vague (some scholars) statement. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 21:48, 4 April 2024 (UTC) Jinn discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. (Reply to comment by VenusFeuerFalle) I did not replace other statements, I added to them. Included Maududi to the list of scholars who "insist belief in jinn is essential to the Islamic faith" and added the case of Nasr_Abu_Zayd as an example of why the issue matters. Belief in jinn is not included among the six articles of Islamic faith, as belief in angels is. Nontheless, many Muslim scholars, including the Hanbalī scholar ibn Taymiyya, the Ẓāhirī scholar ibn Hazm, and revivalist preacher Abul A'la Maududi, insist belief in jinn is essential to the Islamic faith, since they are mentioned in the Quran. (Egyptian Prof. Nasr Abu Zayd went into exile from Egypt after being accused of apostasy, in part for his alleged disbelief in Jinn) (PS, I was waiting for a noticifcation of comments in the Dispute Resolution and did not get any, hence my slow reply) --Louis P. Boog (talk) 15:48, 9 April 2024 (UTC) Notes Zeroth statement by possible moderator (Jinn) I am ready to moderate this dispute if it is necessary. Please read DRN Rule A. The purpose of content discussion is to improve the article and so improve the encyclopedia. Please state concisely what you want to change in the article, or what you want to leave the same that another editor wants to change. It appears that there may not be a significant disagreement, if one editor wants to say that some Islamic scholars consider belief in jinn to be necessary to Islamic belief, and another editor wants to attribute that statement to a specific Islamic scholar. But state what you consider to be the content issue. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (Jinn) First statement by possible moderator (Jinn) I haven't seen any statements from editors in three days. If neither editor provides a statement as to what they want to change in the article, or if only one editor provides a statement, I will close this discussion as abandoned. I may close this discussion as abandoned within 24 hours, but I am not making a statement as to when I will do that, but I am making a statement now that I want to see editor comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:32, 12 April 2024 (UTC) First statements by editors (Jinn) What I want to change in the article: as mentioned above in the Dispute overview I want to add three points. They are relevant to the issue and they amount to three or so sentences in a not terribly long article so Wikipedia:Article size won't be an issue. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 14:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Climate change

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by InformationToKnowledge on 09:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Climate change (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• InformationToKnowledge (talk · contribs)
• Bogazicili (talk · contribs)
• EMsmile (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Me and another editor have hit multiple points of persistent disagreement regarding the structure of a key section, currently named "Food and health". We also cannot agree on how to incorporate a third editor's suggestions.

1) How many sentences should we devote to breaking down the WHO's 2014 estimate of increased mortality caused by climate change (approximately 250,000 extra annual deaths over the next 20 years)? One editor additionally argues this estimate may be too outdated to belong in a top-level article.

2) In particular, whether extreme weather deserves separate mention as a threat to life and health in this particular section, or if it is sufficient that it is mentioned in the other sections?

3) What is the best way to phrase the sentence which discusses that areas of the globe where "life-threatening conditions" due to increased extreme heat/humidity would occur are projected to increase?

4) Should this section in an FA article use exclusively secondary sources, even when the secon are forced to omit notable findings from recent primary sources?

5) Whether we should first note that crop yields have been increasing over time due to agricultural improvements before noting the adverse impacts of climate change on these yields?

6) Whether it's necessary to mention differing impacts by latitude, particularly when the reliable secondary sources can only support vague wording, or if it is best to avoid mentioning latitudes entirely?

7) Do we need to mention the impacts of climate change on livestock production, and in how much detail?

8) How much detail should we devote to food security projections between now and 2050, and the differences under various scenarios?

9) Should we use year 2050 or 2040 for projections after midcentury?

10) Should we keep this section limited to 2 paragraphs, or does it deserve 4? Larger size would make it more likely primary references are used, or that there are cuts from other parts of the article.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Climate_change#Food_and_health (the section was started on the 1st of February, and is now very large, with three sizeable subsections.)

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I would like to see uninvolved editors with the experience at Dispute Resolution help to arrive on a WP:CONS in regards to all of these details.

Summary of dispute by Bogazicili

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

This dispute is about the two paragraphs in Climate_change#Food_and_health subsection. Some issues:

1) Opening sentences for the section such as "Extreme weather events affect public health". InformationToKnowledge said these are " too general and colourless" [1]. However, reliable and overview sources mention these: (bottom chart) [2] [3] [4]

2) InformationToKnowledge doesn't want a general sentence about infectious diseases, even though this is also mentioned by reliable sources. Instead they seem to prefer ONLY a specific WHO study, but that study only looked at a small subset of issues. So just using WHO numbers (250k deaths per year) and info is not comprehensive.

3) InformationToKnowledge prefers too specific information, whereas I prefer more top level information. For example, InformationToKnowledge prefers information from page 797 of this report, whereas I prefer information from pages 14-15 (from the Summary for Policymakers section which gives an overview summary for laypeople).

I have also made a compromise offer to InformationToKnowledge [5]. The latest suggestions and my compromise text are here Talk:Climate_change#Latest_suggestions. Bogazicili (talk) 20:37, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Agree to DRN Rule D Bogazicili (talk) 06:06, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by EMsmile

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Climate change discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Zeroth statement by possible moderator (Climate Change)

I am ready to act as the moderator for this dispute. Please read DRN Rule D. If you want to take part in moderated discussion, please state that you agree to comply with DRN Rule D. Climate change is a contentious topic, and is subject to the ArbCom decision on climate change. I will repeat a few points from the rules. Do not edit the article while it is being discussed. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. You have already done that, and it has been civil but extremely lengthy, and has not resolved the issues. So address your answers to the community, and to the moderator (me) on behalf of the community. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:50, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

It appears that there are a long list of points mentioned. So I will ask each editor to list no more than three points that they want to change in the article, or points that they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change. We can then work on one or two of them. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:50, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (Climate change)

@Robert McClenon: thanks for agreeing to take this dispute. Agreed to DRN Rule D above. Do you need me to trim my statement as well? I had tried to make 3 points. The rest are background info (such as compromise offer, proposed texts etc). My text is closer to the existing article text, as I want to keep general opening sentences in the first paragraph. There were multiple text proposals, my later proposals have diverged more from the current as I tried to accommodate InformationToKnowledge's suggestions. Just FYI, there is a separate conversation at the article talk page here [6], but this is completely unrelated to the dispute that is here. Bogazicili (talk) 06:17, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

I know there shouldn't be a back and forth between editors, but I do not like my views being misrepresented. I did not agree that this [7] is "the most reliable source on projected changes". IPCC sources also needs to be taken into account. Bogazicili (talk) 09:29, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, btw, by "do not edit the article", you mean the disputed part only right? Bogazicili (talk) 17:57, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: Thank you for choosing to moderate this dispute. I agree to abide by DRN Rule D. It seems that the other editor's summary is already limited to three points, which isn't as much of a surprise, as their position is more conservative with respect to the existing text. As the party which wants more extensive changes to the article, it falls to me to focus on the most important areas.

1. Paragraph structure and "flow": Bogazicili's preferred structure for the first paragraph of the disputed section is similar to the current one. So, first this sentence: The World Health Organization (WHO) calls climate change the greatest threat to global health in the 21st century. Then, several short and very general sentences such as Extreme weather leads to injury and loss of life. (current text) or Extreme weather events affect public health (his latest suggestion), or Both children and older people are vulnerable to extreme heat (current)/Temperature extremes lead to increased illness and death (latest suggestion.) Then, a sentence which says that the WHO estimated additional 250,000 annual climate-related deaths for the 2030-2050 period and lists every cause they assessed. I think this is poor writing, and would much prefer that we mention the WHO annual mortality estimate in the second sentence, and then either write about causes assessed in more detail than the short sentences he favours, or not at all.
2. Food security projections: Both of us have already agreed to use this meta-analysis from 2021 as the most reliable source on projected changes in food security between now and 2050, but we disagree on how to cite it. Bogazicili's suggested wording is By 2050, climate change may affect tens to hundreds of millions of people in terms of undernourishment and nutrition-related diseases; change in population at risk of hunger may be positive or negative depending on several climate change and socioeconomic scenarios. I think that this is far too wordy, poorly structured and fundamentally doesn't represent the reference well. Graphs from the reference (here and here) show near-universal declines in food insecurity, so my proposed wording is: By 2050, the number of people suffering from undernourishment and the associated health conditions is likely to decrease by tens to hundreds of millions, but some combinations of severe climate change and low socioeconomic development may increase that number instead. Similarly, I want to explicitly mention the growth in crop yields till now (reference) as a necessary background for this section, while Bogazicili considers it out of scope.
3. What counts as "excessive" detail: I.e. Bogazicili wants to mention effects on crop production by latitudes, but I find it challenging to do it in a sentence without being vague. Conversely, I want to address impacts on livestock production (currently not mentioned in the article), but Bogazicili finds my wording too detailed and keeps omitting any mention of those impacts. It even extends to reference choice: i.e. Bogazicili claims that IPCC summaries are preferable to full IPCC reports, which is not a position I have never heard of. I oppose this position when it weakens our wording (i.e. timelines becoming inconsistent, such as using 2050 in one sentence and 2040 in another) for the supposed benefit of the very few people who'll click on those specific references out of 400+ already in the article.

I hope that this summary meets your expectations. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 09:14, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

First statement by moderator (Climate Change)

If the editors who are taking part in this discussion agree that they are only requesting moderated discussion about the Food and health subsection, then the rule against editing the document can be revised not to edit the subsection. So my first question is whether the content dispute is only about that subsection.

If that is the only area being discussed, then, instead of discussing point-by-point, I will ask each editor to write their own version of the Food and health section in the spaces provided. After I see the two rewritten sections, I will decide what the next step is. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:41, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

First statements by editors (Climate change)

Food and health (InformationToKnowledge)

@Robert McClenon: Indeed, the dispute is limited to that subsection only.

This is my preferred version:

The World Health Organization (WHO) calls climate change the greatest threat to global health in the 21st century.[8] It has estimated that between 2030 and 2050, climate change would cause around 250,000 additional deaths per year due to impacts such as increased levels of extreme heat, greater frequency of extreme weather events and changes in disease transmission.[9] Lethal infectious diseases such as dengue fever and malaria are more easily transmitted in a warmer climate.[10] [11] 30% of the global population currently live in areas where extreme heat and humidity are already associated with excess deaths.[12] By 2100, 50% to 75% of the global population would live in such areas.[13]p. 988

Agricultural and socioeconomic changes had been increasing global crop yields since the middle of the 20th century,[14] but climate change has already slowed the rate of yield growth.p.9 Extreme weather events adversely affect both food and water security, and climate change increases their frequency.p.9 Fisheries have been negatively affected in various regions.p.9 By 2050, the number of people suffering from undernourishment and the associated health conditions is likely to decrease by tens to hundreds of millions, but some combinations of severe climate change and low socioeconomic development may increase that number instead.[15] Under higher warming, global livestock headcounts could decline by 7-10% by 2050, as less animal feed will be available.p.748 If the emissions remain high, food availability will likely decrease after 2050 due to diminishing fisheries and livestock counts, and due to more frequent and severe crop failures.p.797

InformationToKnowledge (talk) 05:09, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Food and health (Bogazilici)

@Robert McClenon: yes, the dispute is only about Food and health subsection, which has two paragraphs currently.

Here's my suggestion:

The World Health Organization (WHO) calls climate change the greatest threat to global health in the 21st century.[16] Extreme weather events affect public health.[17][18] Temperature extremes lead to increased illness and death.[19][20] Climate change can affect transmission of infectious diseases.[21] [22] The WHO has estimated that between 2030 and 2050, climate change would cause around 250,000 additional deaths per year due to increases in diarrhea, malaria, dengue, coastal flooding, childhood malnutrition, and heat exposure in elderly people.[23] By 2100, 50% to 75% of the global population may face climate conditions that are life-threatening due to combined effects of extreme heat and humidity,[24]p. 988 which currently affects 30% of the global population.[25]

Despite overall increase in agricultural productivity, climate change has reduced water and food security, and has curtailed agricultural productivity growth.p.9 Agricultural productivity was negatively affected in mid- and low-latitude areas, while various high latitude areas were positively affected. p.9 Fisheries have been negatively affected in multiple regions.p.9 By 2050, climate change may affect tens to hundreds of millions of people in terms of undernourishment and nutrition-related diseases;p.60 change in population at risk of hunger may be positive or negative depending on several climate change and socioeconomic scenarios.[26] Depending on climate change trajectories, there will be increasing risks to food and water availability, and human health beyond 2040.pp. 14-15.

Bogazicili (talk) 18:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator (Climate Change)

I will be looking at the draft subsections in more detail shortly. In the meantime, I will ask each editor to comment briefly on the other editor's draft. In particular, can you accept the other editor's draft? If not, please give a brief explanation of what you object to in the other editor's statement. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:03, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Second statements by editors (Climate change)

Bogazicili

I'm against InformationToKnowledge's draft because:
1) It's misleading. Portrays WHO numbers as pretty much comprehensive ("greater frequency of extreme weather events and changes in disease transmission"), whereas WHO looks at only a small subset of issues (small subset of disease transmission for example). For example IPCC also predicted "nine million climate-related deaths per year are projected by the end of the century" (high emissions scenario) [IPCC AR6 WG2 Technical Summary p. 63]. Therefore, general opening sentences are preferable, rather than merging everything with the WHO study.
2) It's against NPOV. For the sentence that starts with "By 2050, the number of people suffering from undernourishment and the associated health conditions is likely...", it only uses a single source, ignoring IPCC.
3) It's cherry picked. Uses p.797 in the concluding sentence to justify it's wording, rather than using an overview from Summary for Policymakers section (pages 14-15).
I'm ok with this part: 30% of the global population currently live in areas where extreme heat and humidity are already associated with excess deaths.[22] By 2100, 50% to 75% of the global population would live in such areas.[23]p. 988 Bogazicili (talk) 11:12, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

InformationToKnowledge

I oppose Bogazicili's draft for the following reasons:

1) Issues with paragraph structure and sentence construction/wordiness which make it more difficult to understand. I consider those issues fairly self-evident (i.e. inconsistencies such as "climate change has reduced water and food security, and have curtailed" or run-on sentences like the second-to-last one about projections by 2050), and this difference can even be quantified. According to one of the Readability tools we have been advised to use, Bogazicili's draft ranks almost 10 points below mine in terms of readability.

2) No mention of livestock - a sector of food supply which is, rightly or wrongly, a core part of billions of people's diet, provides 30% of the global protein supply and supports the livelihood of 400 million people.[27]

3) Inconsistencies with dates. Again, I think it would be confusing to readers when the penultimate sentence talks about events between now and year 2050, and the final sentence is about the events after year 2040. There is literally no reason for this besides preferring different parts of the same report. Further, the opening sentence of his second paragraph's draft also has issues with dating. Despite overall increase in agricultural productivity, climate change has reduced water and food security, and have curtailed agricultural productivity growth. "Increase in agricultural productivity" since when? "Reduced water and food security" since when or perhaps, relative to what year? My version of that sentence should not lead to such questions.

4) Likewise, too many sentences raise more questions than answers. I.e. while various high latitude areas were positively affected. (What does "various" mean? Which areas does actually refer to? What percentage all of all high latitude areas is included in there?) Or By 2050, climate change may affect tens to hundreds of millions of people in terms of undernourishment and nutrition-related diseases; change in population at risk of hunger may be positive or negative depending on several climate change and socioeconomic scenarios. Firstly, this sentence says climate change may affect (i.e. the implication is that it may not do anything at all?), then the rough numerical range tens to hundreds of millions of people is immediately followed by may be positive or negative and depending on several climate change and socioeconomic scenarios. How many scenarios are "several"? Do we really think a reader who has not ever looked at an IPCC report or a climate paper before is going to grasp the full meaning of "climate change and socioeconomic scenario"? This sentence risks giving the impression to readers that climate change itself can cause positive change as far as the risk of hunger is concerned. It also risks suggesting that the scientists know so little about the changes in hunger projected in 30 years' time that any estimate could be off by hundreds of millions of people. This is not a good summary of either the Nature source we have both agreed to use or even of the IPCC page he cites for that sentence (and I don't, because the methodologies are not compatible.) Both estimates are precise to the closest million for the specific scenarios, and my draft makes this come across much, much better.

I can adopt the sentence in Bogazicili's draft which mentions latitudes if we can find better language than "various high latitude areas". InformationToKnowledge (talk) 11:56, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Third statement by possible moderator (Climate Change)

I am now asking each editor to read the criticisms that the other editor has of their draft, and to write a revised draft, taking into account the criticisms that the other editor has raised. I will then read the revised drafts more carefully than I have so far, and will make an assessment as to whether I think that there is enough convergence so that a compromise is possible. Otherwise the community will be asked to choose between the two revised versions by a Request for Comments.

Are there any other questions, or any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:41, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Third statements by editors (Climate change)

Food and health second draft (InformationToKnowledge)

I'll begin by responding to the last question posed. As I mentioned earlier, the other questions/content issues regarding this section are: 1) Should it be made larger (approximately doubled, from two paragraphs to four) and split into distinct two-paragraph sections; 2) Whether we should continue using the 2014 WHO estimate. Both points were initially raised by @EMsmile:. This was the reason why I included her when logging the DRN request, but she has not participated in the discussion so far.

When we have last discussed these suggestions with Bogazilici, he was skeptical about the idea of doubling the section, but did not outright oppose it. He was mainly insistent that only secondary sources are used. He was also open to replacing the WHO estimate, but his only suggestion was a quote from the IPCC which focused on a different timescale (2100) and was more complementary then a true alternative.

In my new, four-paragraph draft, I chose to both add this IPCC statement and to replace the WHO estimate with a more up-to-date alternative - the WEF estimate of climate change impacts on human health from January this year. I have also tried to accommodate Bogazicili's preferences in other ways. So, he insisted on a general sentence about extreme weather and health: my draft now includes several specific projections. There are two sentences devoted to impacts on agriculture by latitude instead of one in his draft and zero in my previous one. At the same time, I strove to add more detail and several important factors are discussed for the first time. These are:

• hypertension indirectly caused by coastal flooding
• mortality from wildfires
• impact on mental health
• total healthcare costs
• impact on cash crops
• impact on pests and crop pathogens
• impact on food prices
• Stunting caused by childhood malnutrition

Human health

The World Health Organization (WHO) calls climate change the greatest threat to global health in the 21st century.[28] Over 100 scientists writing in The Lancet have warned about the irreversible harms it poses.[29] According to the World Economic Forum, the most likely future scenario is of 14.5 million deaths caused by climate change by 2050.[30] Of those, 8.5 million deaths are associated with flooding, mostly because flooded areas expand the range of malaria. By 2050, the range of vector-borne diseases may expand to reach 500 million more people. Saltwater intrusion caused by sea level rise will also add over 800,000 cases of hypertension in coastal areas.[31]

Under the same scenario, around 1.6 million people will die in heatwaves by 2050, primarily those aged 65 and older, and 300,000 more will be killed by wildfires.[32] 30% of the global population currently live in areas where extreme heat and humidity are already associated with excess deaths.[33] By 2100, 50% to 75% of the global population would live in such areas.[34]p. 988 These and other climate change impacts are also expected to substantially increase the burden of stress-related mental health conditions.[35] The overall healthcare costs from climate change impacts would exceed 1$ trillion by 2050.[36] If the emissions continue to increase for the rest of century, then over 9 million climate-related deaths would occur annually by 2100.p.63

Food supply

Climate change has strong impacts on agriculture in the low latitudes, where it threatens both staple crops and important cash crops like cocoa and coffee.p.788 Agriculture will experience yield gains at high latitudes, but will also become more vulnerable to pests and pathogens.p.794 Extreme weather events adversely affect both food and water security, and climate change increases their frequency.p.9 Food prices spike after climate shocks.p.794 An increase in drought in certain regions could cause 3.2 million deaths from malnutrition by 2050, primarily in children under five. Many more children would grow up stunted as the result.[37] Under higher warming, global livestock headcounts could decline by 7-10% by 2050, as less animal feed will be available.p.748 Marine animal biomass decreases by 5% with every degree of warming, reducing fishery yields.p.718

Yet, while climate change has already slowed the rate of yield growth,p.9 total crop yields have been increasing since the middle of the 20th century due to agricultural improvements.[38] By 2050, the number of people suffering from undernourishment and the associated health conditions is likely to decrease by tens to hundreds of millions.[39] Food security only worsens by 2050 in some combinations of severe climate change and low socioeconomic development,[40] but if the emissions remain high, it will likely decrease after 2050. This would be due to diminishing fisheries and livestock counts, and due to more frequent and severe crop failures.p.797

I'll also note that this draft has a higher Readability score than the current text of that section, and much higher than either of our previous drafts.

Food and health second draft (Bogazilici)

Sorry for the delay. I actually like a lot of InformationToKnowledge 's revised proposal. I copy and pasted a lot of his work in my suggestion below. The reason I didn't just automatically support his new proposal is because of the length and WP:Summary issues. His version would put the prose of article over 9k words [41]. I believe 9k is the threshold many long-time editors of the page care about (also here: Wikipedia:Article_size#Size_guideline). To his credit, InformationToKnowledge had suggested condensing other sections of the article. But I think that needs to be discussed in the article talk page further. For now, I copy and pasted a lot of his suggestions. One major change I did was to exclude projections of population at risk of hunger by 2050. IPCC and the new meta-review study diverge a bit, so it's hard to reconcile the 2 in WP:Summary. I just used 2024 WEF numbers for now, given it qualifies its projection ("an increase in drought in certain regions")

The World Health Organization calls climate change the greatest threat to global health in the 21st century.[42] Over 100 scientists writing in The Lancet have warned about the irreversible harms it poses.[43] Extreme weather events affect public health, and food and water security.[44][45]p. 9 Temperature extremes lead to increased illness and death.[46][47] Climate change increases the intensity and frequency of extreme weather events.[48]p.9 It can affect transmission of infectious diseases.[49] [50] According to the World Economic Forum, 14.5 million more deaths are expected due to climate change by 2050.[51] If the emissions continue to increase for the rest of century, then over 9 million climate-related deaths would occur annually by 2100.p.63 30% of the global population currently live in areas where extreme heat and humidity are already associated with excess deaths.[52] By 2100, 50% to 75% of the global population would live in such areas.[53]p. 988

While total crop yields have been increasing in the past 50 years due to agricultural improvements, climate change has already slowed the rate of yield growth.p. 9 Fisheries have been negatively affected in multiple regions.p. 9 Climate change has strong impacts on agriculture in the low latitudes, where it threatens crop yields and important cash crops like cocoa.pp. 9, 48, 788 Agriculture will experience yield gains at high latitudes but will become more vulnerable to pests and pathogens.p. 794 An increase in drought in certain regions could cause 3.2 million deaths from malnutrition by 2050 and stunting in children.[54] With 2C warming, global livestock headcounts could decline by 7-10% by 2050, as less animal feed will be available.p.748

There are no sources for now, because I used a lot of InformationToKnowledge's work. I need to verify the sources and check against Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing. I'll revise the above suggestion tomorrow. Also, Robert McClenon, given the convergence in this round, I'd suggest doing another round before an RFC. Bogazicili (talk) 20:53, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Fourth statement by moderator (Climate Change)

I will be preparing an RFC for the community to choose between two draft paragraphs on the food and health impact of climate change. So if you haven't made any revisions that you are planning to make to your version, please make them within 48 hours. I don't know whether the RFC will go out in 48 hours or in four days, but please have your version that is ready for the community to review within 48 hours. If there are any questions, please ask them now. If there are any other issues, please state them now. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Fifth statement by moderator (Climate change)

I am asking each editor to put a third and final draft in the space below within 36 hours. Are there any other questions or issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:29, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Fifth statements by editors (Climate change)

Food and health third draft (InformationToKnowledge)

Before his recent draft, Bogazicili raised concerns about article length, but I don't think that would be an issue with my proposal. There is already growing consensus on the article talk page for condensing a different section in order make space for increasing size here. (In fact, Causes of climate change was recently created in large part to make it easier to condense certain paragraphs of this article.)

As such, I only made limited edits to the third paragraph - adding a new starting sentence and changing the wording in the next two. This is to address Bogazicili's argument that year 2050 food security projections should not be included because the 2021 meta-analysis and the IPCC AR6 "diverge a bit". I went back to AR6 text, and found a sentence proving that the difference is due to AR6 comparing "counterfactual 2050 without climate change" with climate change, while the meta-analysis compares year 2050 (with climate change) with the present day. Thus, the difference can be explained within paragraph text, which I have now done in my draft.

I know that this is rather "last-minute" and does not leave @Bogazicili: much time to respond if we are to stick to the 36-hour timeline, but I also don't think he's likely to make substantive changes to his draft in response to that addition alone.

Human health

The World Health Organization (WHO) calls climate change the greatest threat to global health in the 21st century.[55] Over 100 scientists writing in The Lancet have warned about the irreversible harms it poses.[56] According to the World Economic Forum, the most likely future scenario is of 14.5 million deaths caused by climate change by 2050.[57] Of those, 8.5 million deaths are associated with flooding, mostly because flooded areas expand the range of malaria. By 2050, the range of vector-borne diseases may expand to reach 500 million more people. Saltwater intrusion caused by sea level rise will also add over 800,000 cases of hypertension in coastal areas.[58]

Under the same scenario, around 1.6 million people will die in heatwaves by 2050, primarily those aged 65 and older, and 300,000 more will be killed by wildfires.[59] 30% of the global population currently live in areas where extreme heat and humidity are already associated with excess deaths.[60] By 2100, 50% to 75% of the global population would live in such areas.[61]p. 988 These and other climate change impacts are also expected to substantially increase the burden of stress-related mental health conditions.[62] The overall healthcare costs from climate change impacts would exceed 1$ trillion by 2050.[63] If the emissions continue to increase for the rest of century, then over 9 million climate-related deaths would occur annually by 2100.p.63

Food supply

Climate change has strong impacts on agriculture in the low latitudes, where it threatens both staple crops and important cash crops like cocoa and coffee.p.788 Agriculture will experience yield gains at high latitudes, but will also become more vulnerable to pests and pathogens.p.794 Extreme weather events adversely affect both food and water security, and climate change increases their frequency.p.9 Food prices spike after climate shocks.p.794 An increase in drought in certain regions could cause 3.2 million deaths from malnutrition by 2050, primarily in children under five. Many more children would grow up stunted as the result.[64] Under higher warming, global livestock headcounts could decline by 7-10% by 2050, as less animal feed will be available.p.748 Marine animal biomass decreases by 5% with every degree of warming, reducing fishery yields.p.718

In isolation, climate change is expected to increase the risk of hunger for 8 to 80 million people by 2050.p.725 However, total crop yields have been increasing since the middle of the 20th century due to agricultural improvements, and in spite of climate change.[65]p.832 By 2050, the overall number of people suffering from undernourishment and the associated health conditions is likely to decrease by tens to hundreds of millions.[66] Food security only worsens by 2050 in some combinations of severe climate change and low socioeconomic development,[67] but if the emissions remain high, it will likely decrease after 2050. This would be due to diminishing fisheries and livestock counts, and due to more frequent and severe crop failures.p.797

Food and health third draft (Bogazicili)

I made some adjustments to my previous draft, and will prepare the third draft after InformationToKnowledge's suggestion. Bogazicili (talk) 23:35, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Back-and-forth discussion (Climate change)

References

Talk:LiveJasmin#Latest proposed_"Controversy"_section_improved_after_a_number_of_suggestions_from_the_community

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Filed by Alexfotios on 21:20, 9 April 2024 (UTC). Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:LiveJasmin#Latest proposed "Controversy" section improved after a number of suggestions from the community (edit | subject | history | links | "Controversy"_section_improved_after_a_number_of_suggestions_from_the_community watch | logs) Users involved Alexfotios (talk · contribs) Ohnoitsjamie (talk · contribs) Seraphimblade (talk · contribs) Avgeekamfot (talk · contribs) IOHANNVSVERVS (talk · contribs) Herostratus (talk · contribs) Morbidthoughts (talk · contribs) Dispute overview The issue is whether the latest version of the proposed article session Talk:LiveJasmin#Latest_proposed_"Controversy"_section_improved_after_a_number_of_suggestions_from_the_community should be added to the LiveJasmin page or not. For discussion and background please see talk page sections above this one. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:LiveJasmin#Controversy Talk:LiveJasmin#Latest Proposed Controversy Section Talk:LiveJasmin#Proposed RfC Talk:LiveJasmin#Latest proposed "Controversy" section after a number of suggestions How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Please advise whether Talk:LiveJasmin#Latest_proposed_"Controversy"_section_improved_after_a_number_of_suggestions_from_the_community is worthy of inclusion to the article and whether it complies with WP rules and etiquette. Thank you! Summary of dispute by Ohnoitsjamie Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Seraphimblade Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. This editor has already been told by, at my count, four experienced editors that their proposed addition is not appropriate, with no one except this editor disagreeing with that assessment. At this point their continuing to push at the issue is becoming disruptive, and I do not have any intent of participating in further "dispute resolution" on the matter. You got your answer. I realize it wasn't the one you hoped for, but it's still the answer. Time to move on. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:27, 9 April 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Avgeekamfot Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Got involved in this after being pinged by the feedback request bot. Not sure why it's still being discussed since pretty much everyone except Alexfotios agrees that this content isn't appropriate. Avgeekamfot (talk) 04:07, 10 April 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by IOHANNVSVERVS Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Herostratus Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Adding the content is fine with me. What I want to hear is if it's not true. It it's true, it's fine. Can't hurt to present it to the reader and let her decide if she thinks it too trivial to care about or not. The reader is not an idiot. The article is not too long. If you want to make the argument "Well it is true, but we don't want the reader to know these facts" make it, and good luck. Throwing around accusations of "disruptive" is only OK if you're in the right. Are you? And "four experienced editors" doesn't impress me much on this subject, because... oops out of space. Herostratus (talk) 02:08, 10 April 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Morbidthoughts Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Talk:LiveJasmin#Latest proposed_"Controversy"_section_improved_after_a_number_of_suggestions_from_the_community discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Djong (ship)

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Merzostin on 14:12, 10 April 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Djong (ship) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Merzostin (talk · contribs) Nitekuzee (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Disagreement about removing problematic misinformation quote WP:LIE, which deliberately used a quote out of context to mislead readers. It also tried to fabricate real history by passing off description of Chinese ships to describe the Javanese ships. I have removed the quote, but was then reverted, this quote was pretty famous and used in many publication to describe Chinese ships so i have provided multiple evidences to show that it was indeed quote of Chinese ships, but the editor continue to deny it while didn't provide a single credible evidence on how he think it could be Javanese ships and also continue to use the distorted quote rather than the real quote from the real source. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Djong (ship)#Zhou Qufei, Lingwai Daida How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? with fact checking the evidence and then removed the misinformation and hoax, which aren't allowed on Wikipedia. Summary of dispute by Nitekuzee Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Djong (ship) discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sulaiman Bek

– New discussion.

Filed by Ermanarich on 15:32, 11 April 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Sulaiman Bek (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Ermanarich (talk · contribs)
• Mteiritay (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I added information about alternative spelling of the town's name and the Turkmen minority living there, supported by two sources. Another user deleted this by citing a facebook video that does not address the claims made in my edits.

I added more sources that support my claim and tried to solve the issue on the talk page, which the user did not respond constructively to. I have repeatedly argued my points, but the user is only responding in brief and keeps deflecting from the issue that is actually being discussed. I also tried to contact an admin as a mediator, who had intervened in another edit war this user was involved in, but that person was not willing to engage in that topic and referred me here.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

• Talk:Sulaiman Bek#Preventing an edit war

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Since we can't find an agreement, bring in arguments that help resolving the issue. Ultimately, the question probably is which edit should be kept.

Summary of dispute by Mteiritay

You have yet to prove your additions are correct. Mteiritay (talk) 16:29, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Sulaiman Bek discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

•  Note to participants: You have not notified the other party of the discussion as required. I have done this for you. While this dispute can be resolved here if you wish, you may also find the third opinion process easier. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 15:44, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, I thought the user would be notified when I added them under "Users involved". As for the third opinion process, I was referred here by an admin I asked for mediation and I already put a lot of time and effort into trying to resolve that dispute. So I'm frankly not too motivated to go to yet another place with this, but if it's necessary I can do that. Ermanarich (talk) 17:25, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Not a requirement, just an option. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 18:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Mteiritay, the summary of dispute section is not for continuing to argue your own position, but for describing the dispute in full. Assume I have not read any of the relevant discussion, and address the Wikipedia community, not Ermanarich. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 18:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Rafida

– New discussion.

Filed by Albertatiran on 13:04, 12 April 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Rafida (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Shadowwarrior8 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

In a series of edits, I revised and improved this article by removing unsourced or poorly-sourced claims and rewriting large parts of the text. I do this regularly to select articles, usually in preparation for GA submissions. Large parts of my edits were undone without due explanation by the user Shadowwarrior8. In particular, please see [68] and [69]. For a second time, one by one, I addressed the problematic bits of the article, this time carefully detailing each issue separately in its edit summary. Another user, Aqsian313, also helped with addressing some of the issues. For instance, he removed a sentence that I had earlier marked by the template. (Please see here.) All these edits were again undone by Shadowwarrior8. Please see here. This is when I took the issue to the talk page, which you can see here. In particular, Aqsian313 commented there in favor of my version of the article.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Rafida#Edit-warring

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I'd like to ask you to undo the unexplained mass-revert [70]

Summary of dispute by Shadowwarrior8

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I reverted a series of disruptive edits made by user Albertatiran which involved the removal of encyclopaedic sources with in-line citations (here) and insertion of several unsourced POV edits. (see the edit history of the page) The user was unable to bring any in-line citation as demonstrated in the talk page of the article.

The user's proposed version cant be inserted because it consists of unsourced sectarian POV and removal of sourced content. This issue isnt even a content dispute, because unsourced POV claims have no place in wikipedia in the first place. Content disputes mostly occur when two or more editors differ over how to paraphrase information present in academic sources. On the other hand, the user Albertatiran removed academic sources by engaging in "idontlikeit"-style arguments. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 15:10, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Rafida discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Zeroth statement by possible moderator (Rafida)

The filing editor did not notify the other editor, but the other editor has made a statement, so I am willing to try to moderate the dispute. The editors should list and notify the other editors who have discussed the dispute on the article talk page. I know nothing of the subject matter, and will expect the editors to provide any background information that is important. Please read DRN RuleA and state that you will follow the rules during the discussion. The purpose of content discussion is to improve the article, so I am asking each editor to state concisely what they want to change in the article (or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change). Robert McClenon (talk) 21:23, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (Rafida)

@Robert McClenon: Thank you for moderating the discussion. Yes, I've read and will adhere to DRN RuleA. As for the outcome, I'd like the revision here to be undone. I'll also notify the other user who participated in the talk page discussion, Aqsian313, about this ongoing case. Albertatiran (talk) 09:33, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for notifying! I personally consider Albertatiran's version to be far better than the current one in terms of sources. Albertatiran removed poor sources such as alukah.net, Allama al-Hussein al-Houthi, Maulana Akbar Najibadi all of whom are nowhere close to WP:RS. Encyclopædia Britannica is a generally reliable source in my opinion, however it's articles are edited numerous times again and again like Wikipedia, so I do not regard it to be used on this article. One can just see the much-needed differences between Albertatiran's version and the pre-Albertatiran version If Shadowwarrior8 believes Albertatiran's version contains "sectarian POV", then the two can maybe discuss on changing the wording a bit, but Albertatiran's version is clearly more reliably sourced than the current one. Aqsian313 (talk • contribs) 9:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Aisha

– New discussion.

Filed by Hakikatco on 02:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Aisha (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Hakikatco (talk · contribs)
• kaalakaa (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

My content was deleted due to invalid reasons, the user Kaalakaa seems to manipulate WP policies to remove my content https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aisha#Marriage_age_of_Aisha

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

I started a talk thread but we couldn't resolve the matter after multiple discussions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aisha#Marriage_age_of_Aisha

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Adding this content does not violate any WP policies. The burden of proof falls on those claiming a policy breach.

Can you please help

Summary of dispute by kaalakaa

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Aisha discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• 'Volunteer Note -The filing editor should notify the other editor on their user talk page. McClenon mobile (talk) 18:05, 15 April 2024 (UTC)